If you follow Christian apologists vs evolution academics on YouTube…then you are a lot like me. I’m always wanting to hear good arguments and reasoning against evolution. I’ve listened to Frank Turek from the Book “I don’t have enough faith to be an Athesist” and Ken Ham from “Answers in Genesis” and the Noah’s Ark Encounter in Kentucky on a regular basis.
There have been two great videos published recently over the age of the earth. Frank Turek proposing an old earth and Ken Ham refuting that explanation with a Biblical viewpoint of a young earth. I suggest you watch both videos and use this primer as a guide as you listen to both arguments.
Caution if you don’t read the end of this…you’ll miss the best overlooked argument for a young earth that both of these apologists have missed.
Both claim to appeal to the Bible, nature, grammar, reason and logic. All are required, but sometimes used unethically and without discipline.
I’m going to say the same thing both of these say about each other…I like these guys…but that does not make them exempt from the critical analysis of truth that they are both subjected to when they enter the public square with a Bible in their hands and Christ on their lips.
Why? Truth matters…not the truth you want or like or feel comfortable with…but the actual truth that makes you cringe because it highlights what you think you know and actually don’t. The truth you don’t want to discuss because you’ve already published adamant books that you don’t want to admit had some truth and some mistakes.
But if you claim to be a Christian…you can’t be a Christian and ignore the truth and its refinement.
Hebrews 10:26, For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2 Thessalonians 2:10, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved….v12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Wow…that should make you uncomfortable. The Bible is even clearer you must have “truth” if you have the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
1 John 4:6, We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
All of a sudden Frank Turek’s criticism of Ken Ham “lacking humility” for doing what he should in evaluating if truth is being spoken in Christ’s name falls pretty flat. I was surprised Frank chose this kind of emotional blackmail to handle valid arguments against Frank’s “old earth” and “old universe” theory.
Where is the logic and the reason? Maybe it is lacking because Frank’s foundation for an “old earth” theory is based on the very presupposition and poor grammar that Frank criticizes others of using.
Again I like Frank Turek, but he has a habit of picking and choosing which scriptures he likes to use and which ones he likes to ignore. In fact when Charlie Kirk published his book on the Sabbath Frank looked embarrassed of Charlie’s take on the Seventh Day Sabbath. Why? Frank has a presupposition that the New Covenant is not bound to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath. So, on the one hand he says we are bound to the New Covenant and then plays unscriptural games with what is actually in the New Covenant.
Did the Apostles keep the Seventh Day Sabbath? Yes. Did Paul the Apostle keep the Seventh Day Sabbath? Yes. Did Gentile believers keep the Seventh Day Sabbath? Yes.
Acts 14:1, And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
Acts 18:4, And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
So, Frank Turek…gets around this fact by saying it wasn’t required and Jews did one thing and Greeks did another. It’s simply not historical…nor logical. Yet Frank’s presupposition overrules his logic and reason and history. He then attempts to redefine what is in the New Covenant…against what is actually Biblical.
If you want to see what the New Covenant has written in it…then go to Exodus 34. This is the foundational scripture that tells you that the Old Covenant will die and be replaced by a New Covenant. You don’t need to wonder what is there…you can read it for yourself. Exodus 34 shows the shattering of the Old Covenant and its replacement with a new set of tablets and a new administrator of those tablets. Moses is presented with both.
What is written on the New Covenant?
Exodus 34:1, And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
What is written the second time? “The same words” that were on the first tablets. The same Seventh Day Sabbath. You won’t hear Frank talk about that. Why? It violates his logic and presupposition.
You even see the appointment of the New Administrator of Grace of the New Covenant presented to Moses.
Exodus 34: 5, And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. 9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
Why won’t Frank look at this? It would require him to admit he is wrong and change. He doesn’t want to change. He would rather dwell in the ambiguous territory of “I don’t know…it is not a salvation issue”.
He does the same thing with a “young vs old earth” argument. He claims to not know and say it doesn’t matter and then spends all his time teaching an old earth argument. That’s just not credible, but it is comfortable on liberal leftist university campuses where Frank makes his bread and butter.
He would rather say he is standing on the shoulders of Intellectual greats rather than take responsibility for his own teaching. How did these Academic Pundits of “Christianity” get to be University giants? By kowtowing to Peer Reviewed journals that require editorial screening that have turned former Christian Universities into an Evolutionist paradise that requires Christians to “compromise” Biblical teaching for Evolutionist “must haves”.
So, anyone allowed in the door is likely mostly compromised already. How do we know that? Look at what is published by “Christian” Academics…most of it is attempting to undermine the validity of the Bible and Archaeological history and then claim those who are doing the trashing are “Christians”.
Then you stand around and wonder how the West abandoned Christianity. The Evolutionists are not the problem. There have always been unbelievers. The problem is the Christians love the adoration of Academics and will hike up their skirts the moment it looks like they might get some acknowledgment from these “approved” unbelievers.
So let’s get into where both Christian pundits and Frank Turek get into trouble with the Old Earth Theory…which is just another way of saying the “Gap Theory”. Is it scriptural? I’ll try and keep it brief and answer Frank’s “logic”.
Frank proposes that the Universe is created in Genesis 1:1…then God comes back and refines everything in later verses. Here is the problem.
Genesis 1:14, And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Here we see the stars and the sun and earth being made on the fourth day of creation. Frank’s everything is created in the beginning and refined later during the six days of creation falls apart. The reason Turek suggests all is created before the Days 1-7 is he asks the question how can you have evening and morning before the sun, earth, and moon?
Here is the simple answer. An immaterial, timeless, massless, divine being begins to manifest His material creation and this timeless being is now expressing his own nature in manifest material reality. His own time is now being manifest in creation as evening and morning. Does that require a earth, sun, and moon for God to keep track of his own infinite time? No, but in the expression of His glory…the manifested light and created sun, moon, and earth His passage of time is now synced with His creation and manifested in daily moving of time from evening to morning and is reflected in the movement of sun and moon.
Turek then contends that Ken Ham never answered if the Bible teaches if the Earth rotates around the Sun or if the Sun rotates around the Earth. He asks this to determine if the Bible can be looked at as a reliable science guide of natural reality or if it is just a bunch of stories. In this case I think Frank is hoping it is just a bunch of allegory. But I think the Bible does have an answer for this.
Isaiah 24:17, Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Isaiah 13:10, For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
Both of these scriptures clearly show that in the endtime the earth will reel like a drunkard, be removed out of its place and the sun and moon are shaken. All you need to do is ask yourself a simple logic question. For all these things to occur…if the sun moves around the earth…what must occur to make all these things happen to an observer on the earth. You must move and shake the sun and moon. If the earth moves around the sun…then what must be moved to make all these things happen? You must shake the earth in its path around the sun.
So, Frank’s argument that the Bible doesn’t teach the earth revolving around the sun and is therefore not a science manual…is misguided.
Frank is proposing that there may be millions of years of animals living and dying before the creation of man on Day 7. This is the Old Earth/Gap Theory that Christian Academic greats love. He mentions that in Genesis 1 the Earth is described as being without form and void. What he fails to see is that God is describing the fact that the earth is without images (without form and empty) …which is then resolved by God saying “lets us make man in our image”.
Genesis 1:26, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
But Frank is proposing that there are millions of years of the life and death of animals before God created man in His image. He fully understands how this contradicts the Bible and suggests that Romans 5:12 is not what it says…and inserts his own presupposition. Of course he chooses his own preferred translation…why? Because other translations do not support his presupposition.
Romans 5:12, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Frank knows you can’t have death before sin…that would contradict the Bible. But the Bible is clear that Adam sinned and brought death. So, what does Frank do…he leaves out what he doesn’t like. That death entered the “world” which is the subject of the paragraph.
If Frank would not pick and choose when to use proper grammar, we could avoid these debates over truth from those who lack humility. Look at the verses he uses and ignores. He says that yes death entered mankind…but not the animals…not all creation…not all the world. But what does that very same scripture say? This sin and death brought by man fell on man…and the whole world…by that man…and caused death to reign even on those who had not sinned after Adam’s transgression (the animals).
Frank…come on man…you’re killing me. It’s all right there in the same verses you use to support your unbiblical theory. Frank makes two grave errors here…he tries to insert a presupposition that he says you must adhere to and he ignores proper grammar and paragraph structure. Two demerits for Frank.
When this argument fails, Frank stupes to emotional blackmail by telling everyone you need to take a chill pill and be more humble…unlike Ken Ham. Really? That’s you’re argument when you pull out poor Biblical Analysis?
Was that lacking humility? Shall I sit in the back of the class in the corner? Let’s skip the humble shaming. In fact I used Frank Turek’s “I don’t have enough faith to be an Atheist” as a way to evaluate his inconsistent use of logic, reason, and analysis in writing my first book, “The Elijah Calling”, which became a best seller on Amazon and BestCommentaries.com.
I love it when Frank does a good job with logic and analysis, but he has severe blind spots where he refuses to use logic and the Bible and abandons both for his own beloved presuppositions.
Frank sums up his complaints against Ken Ham by saying he is majoring in the minors by focusing on truth instead of Jesus and what do you do with Jesus. The problem is Frank is wrong about this in the end time. The question God has for mankind is not what did you do with Jesus…God asks a different question. What did you do with Truth?
Revelation 2:2, I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Can you be a Christian and ignore the truth?
Can you be a Christian and know truth and not do it?
Can you be a Christian and know the Bible teaches one thing and you are doing another?
What is your first love? You’ve been taught wrong…it is not Jesus…it is truth. It is right here in your Bible.
2 Thessalonians 2:10, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved….v12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Doesn’t sound very humble, I guess.
It requires conflict within the body of Christ.
It is not get along time in the church.
I’m going to remind you, Frank, and Ken…I love these guys. They are out battling for truth…but sometimes Paul needs to call Peter out and do a little analysis. Are they big enough to handle it? I think so. Believe it or not…people find you more credible if you can have these open debates. Why? People don’t like blind faith…they like people that are rational, reasonable, and have a good methodology for figuring out what is what. It’s healthy!
Now I don’t know if Frank ever read my book. I published the Elijah Calling back in 2014. I had many email discussions with his students over what is in the book. But I can tell you I was covering these issues 12 years ago…that he is only now just starting to cover in his new book “The War on Reality”. I was discussing multiculturalism and the war for truth back then. I’m glad it only took him 12 years to start writing about the same things.
Ending the Old vs Young Earth Debate:
Now finally what are Frank Turek and Ken Ham missing when debating the Old Earth vs the Young Earth that they could resolve if they abandoned their presuppositions and strictly followed what the Bible says in Genesis 1 and 2?
Romans 8:18, For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
This scripture makes it so plain. All creatures were subject to groaning and suffering because of Adam’s sin. The current state of animals and mankind is not our natural state and ALL await the redemption of all creation who are now under suffering and death. For Turek to claim that God’s “good creation” included the suffering and death of animals for millions of years is completely unbiblical. It denies the truth of these verses that all creation and not just mankind are suffering and awaiting the redemption of our bodies.
Isaiah 65:25, The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
Why do you have the promise of animals not eating one another anymore and not destroying anything in God’s Kingdom? Frank would have you believe animals killing animals was the “good” natural order of God’s creation in Genesis 1 for millions of years. He’s wrong. Any Kingdom of God where animals are dying, killing, destroying, and being eaten I want nothing to do with.
So, is Frank compromising so he can be indulged by “academics”? Yes. Do I care about the pedigree of his favorite academics? Not at all…in fact the Academic Peer Review system likely makes them compromised. Frank suggests Ken isn’t keeping up on the latest research. Now this just sounds condescending and it is below Frank’s ability to reason with others.
How could Ken Ham better argue for the young earth and young universe theory? It’s simple. Drop your presuppositions. Jesus gives us the pattern or fractal to use. God is the great farmer. He sows the seed.
Matthew 13:24, Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
This is the fractal of reality. Everything is sown a seed and then manifests an image. The earth without form and void (empty of images) is filled by God with Seed that produce images.
Follow the fractal. There are two components…seed then image. What are the themes of each part of the fractal? What must you do to the seed to make it grow an image? Phase 1…bury it.
John 12:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
The seed is associated with death and burial.
Then what happens? What is phase two?
If it dies and is buried it grows up and produces images (fruit).
Phase 2 of the fractal is associated with resurrection life and the ascension and manifesting of images.
How do we know this fractal of seed and then manifestation of images is true? Do what Frank suggests…. look at the Natural Order…everything has a seed and then it grows into a manifested image. It produces fruit and the cycle repeats. Thanks Frank…you’re right the natural order will show you the patterns you need to discern truth and thereby give you the logic to evaluate Biblical truth. One demerit removed for Frank’s common sense.
Let’s use this pattern and fractal of Seed (death) and Image (resurrection) and apply it to Genesis 1 and 2. It follows the natural order…but do the scriptures support it? God has made it clear that His goal was to fill an empty earth with images. Genesis 1 shows there are no images. There is a lot of creating going on…but no images. We think there are images because we’ve listened to hundreds of years of well-intentioned Bible teachers that had their own presuppositions.
So, let’s let the Bible interpret the Bible. Are there any images in Genesis 1 on the earth?
Genesis 2:1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Now if you come without false presuppositions and come only with Biblical presuppositions the answer must not contradict other scriptures nor the natural order of the fractal of seed and manifested image.
Genesis 2:5 makes it clear that yes God created the seeds of everything in Genesis 1. Why does it comply with the fractal of seed (death)? Because the seeds were made but not manifested. They are in the earth…and it hasn’t produced anything because it hasn’t rained yet.
Frank…..there is no Gap.
God rests from all the creation of seeds of Genesis 1 and the first Six days of creation. There are no images manifested in the first six days. It is only on the Seventh Day when God rests from creating seeds that water and breath are brought forth. The seeds are watered and the animals are given breath. Also on the Seventh Day Sabbath the second part of the “Seed then Manifested Image (fruit)” fractal occurred. The picture of resurrection life and manifested images comes to pass on the Seventh Day and in Genesis 2…not before.
Thank God there is no death for animals for millions of years before Adam and Eve are brought forth. Thank God there is the promise of redemption not just for mankind but for every lovely beautiful creature God has made. Notice animals were not meant to die. They are in the Garden with Adam and Eve before their fall and death came upon all creation.
There is hope for us and for all creation. May God speed that day and end all of our suffering.
Stop compromising and boldly declare the truth. Take no prisoners…free everyone.
Special thanks to Ken Ham and Frank Turek. I hope they are scientific enough to consider this fractal seriously. It is so much easier to teach new believers when you follow God’s own fractals. You will see this same fractal repeated over and over and over again in nature and in the scriptures. Learn how to see them by reading, “The Elijah Calling” by Ken Mentell sold on Amazon and on Bestcommentaries.com “Eschatology/Endtime” Best book list.
To hear more about this topic listen to the “Restoring Prophecy” podcast on Apple Podcasts or go to PodBean to see all the different APPs you can listen for free.
You can also get “Mystery Babylon vs the Restrainer” on Audiobook.
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Get back to your Bibles and get back to the truth. I’d also suggest you check out my latest book, “Broken: What if the First 4 Seals are Broken Before the Tribulation?” by Ken Mentell. You can buy the book series on Amazon.
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